Interview of Karen Craig (worked in large law firm, then moved in house; now opting out)

State and spell your name so that we have it on the videotape.

A: Karen Craig. K-A-R-E-N C-R-A-I-G.

Q: You started out in a big law firm, right?

A: That's right.

Q: Why did you leave it?

A: It was a fabulous place to work at and I got wonderful training but as probably most people know, you really give your life to the law firm when you are at a big place, maybe it is like that at the small one, too. I didn't want to work as many hours a week so I chose to go in-house.

Q: Into a manufacturing company, right?

A: That's right. I used to work for a large manufacturing company where I still got to do very sophisticated work on financial transactions and the debt capital market so that was something that I was really concerned about, I wanted to keep the level of sophistication of the practice but get to do it a little bit less.

Q: And you had a baby while you were there?

A: That's right, I had my older daughter Lauren almost three years ago and that was a wonderful thing and I found that I wasn't able to go back to work full time after that--by my choice. They would have loved to have me back full time. They worked with me to allow me to work about twenty hours a week. It wasn't a set schedule, they allowed me to work the days and the hours that I wanted to and generally come up with about twenty hours because I still have project responsibility and sometimes it ended up being more than twenty hours and once in a while it would be less than twenty but overall that is about what it was.

Q: Did it work?

A: It worked. It was a balancing act. I think it worked out well for the company and it worked out basically pretty well for me, too, in terms of allowing me to keep a hand in and get the extra income and have a little bit of intellectual challenge and the break from day-to-day baby care. But it is an extra layer of stress on top of trying to take care of a baby and run a household.

Q: Sounds good. Why aren't you doing it now?

A: Well, I was lucky enough to have another beautiful daughter about six months ago and maintaining that job and caring for two children was a lot different than just having one child. I used to do some of my work from home and would be able to sort of manage my older daughter while I could get some of the work done but a baby and a toddler is a different equation and I didn't want to leave them for that long during the week and be gone from two children and I am older now and more tired and have two kids now instead of one. So, I opted to resign, which was a very difficult decision because I loved the company I worked for. They were very good to me. It is a scary thing, too, because I don't know how I will get back into the work force and I certainly don't know that I can go back there although I think that they think highly of me and should a position be available and I am ready to go back, they would hire me. But we just wait and see.

Q: You took a big gamble.

A: I did, yes.

Q: Do you wonder, AGee, will I be able to get back in the workforce at all?

A: I don't have doubts that I will be able to get back into the workforce. I have a pretty strong resume and a lot of good work experience and I think I could get some good recommendations. But the question is, will I be able to go back to this job that I know so well and a company that I know so well? I can't say that I could do it in my sleep but it is something that I feel very comfortable at doing. There would be a lot of pluses to getting to go back there.

Q: But your gamble is that you have no idea if you will be able to go back to this company that you love.

A: Yeah, that is true. I might have to find another company and hope I love them, too! I am pretty sure that I wouldn't go to a law firm because even part time there is generally full time. So, it would probably be another company that I would be looking to work for.

Q: Do you ever regret going to law school?

A: I don't regret it. It is funny that you ask that because sometimes people come up and talk to you and they know that you are a lawyer and they say, Oh, my child is going to law school. And I have to admit, my first reaction is, Oh! Why? Don't send them to law school! And I think I say that just because it is really hard to be a lawyer if you want to work at one of those big law firms, you give up so much in terms of your personal life. You gain a lot, you gain a lot of work experience and you can have a very good income and get the kind of job that I enjoyed at this in-house company. But it is a ton of work and you really do have to make sacrifices for it. That being said, it is also a wonderful background and I was able to make it work in a part-time capacity for two and a half years and they wanted me to come back in that same part-time capacity and I just wasn't able to make it work in my current life stage but I can't regret having gone myself.

Q: Do you think big law firms are always going to be out of reach of most women who want a satisfying career and some family life?

A: Yes. I just don't see how it can work. And I don't really blame the law firms, either. I think they could do a better job than they are doing but honestly, the demands of the business are such that if you don't provide your clients this tremendously high level of service around the clock, the clients are going to go find other counsel. It is sort of strange when you go in-house and you are the person doing the hiring and you know what to expect and you know what to demand and you know what you are paying. You say, Geez, I am paying X hundred dollars an hour and I have had this crisis come up and I want the work done tomorrow. You think, Geez, some poor slob is going to be here working on it all night. But that is why they are getting paid that much and if they don't do it then I can go to this other big firm down the block who does great work. So, I don't see it from the law firm's perspective. If their female lawyer doesn't want to do it, how does it work out?

Q: Do you think there is always going to be a certain level of unfairness between male and female attorneys?

A: What do you mean, Aunfairness?

Q: Well, the women have the children and 99 times out of 100, they are the ones who are the ones that stay home with them if there is a choice. You know what I mean.

A: I think there will always be more women who would prefer to have more flexible schedules and more time off and those types of accommodations from law firms. I think that will always be the case. I used to think when I was a junior associate at a big law firm and didn't have children...but even then I knew I wanted to have a family and kids, I thought, Why can't you just still make partner if you work less and are willing to earn less? But still give high quality work and just have fewer clients or whatever it would take. I don't think the law firms are very receptive to that and I don't understand why because I think if you are willing to work however much it takes around the clock for a certain client or a certain project and then be able to have a breather space and consequently earn less money than the person who goes deal to deal to deal, you should be able to do that. But that doesn't seem to work right now in the big law firms and I don't know that it will change. But it should.

Q: Any advice for young women in law school now?

A: Study hard? I have often thought in terms of women who want to have kids and work part-time that maybe the thing to do is choose an area of the law that is not so time-intensive. I am a corporate and securities lawyer and for that you go from deal to deal. And I understand from my litigator friends that you go from case to case and you are working around the clock on those types of things. But I think there are some fields like estate planning and I don't know what else, where you are more able to have normal hours or work part-time.

Q: How about parents? What do you say to them, if they are the ones who paid all this money for law school and then they see their child find out that she can't do it and have a family and she may walk out and they may be shaking their heads like, AWhy did we spend all that money?

A: Well, hopefully it will be a good background for the lawyer no matter what she chooses to do. Even if she doesn't go back into the legal field I think that you certainly learn ways of thinking and analyzing and problem solving. Just in your first couple of years you learn about teamwork and projects and dealing with people who are very different from you. So, it is probably money well spent even if you don't end up in the legal field for your whole life.

Q: Anything you want to add?

A: Just that I wish all the women out there good luck in working out their careers and their families together.

: Ok. Thank you.