Interview of Sandra Tholen (attorney who opted out for a few months but was drawn back to work due to flexible arrangement)

Ok. So let's start off by let me ask you to state and spell your name so we have it on the videotape.

A: Sandra Tholen.

Q: Are you commonly called Sandy?

A: Usually called Sandy.

Q: Ok. Well let me ask you when you first started out, well when you were going to law school how old were your children?

A: My kids were 4 and 6.

Q: Did you take a job immediately upon graduation?

A: Right after I graduated I clerked for a year in federal court for a District Court judge and then went from there to a big firm. On a full-time basis.

Q: And what kind of hours did you have in that big firm?

A: They were hours that didn't really mesh very well with having a family and having an independent life.

Q: How many hours a week did you work?

A: It varied but there were a couple of overnighters which is kind of when I started rethinking what I was doing and whether or not that was really what I wanted.

Q: Did you rethink why did I go to law school?

A: I actually adored law school. I really enjoyed law school. I loved it, the intellectual challenge of it. I loved the people I went to school with. I really enjoyed law school, but I started wondering how I was going to be able to use what I gained in law school in a way that fit with the rest of my life and the rest of my goals.

Q: I guess what I'm wondering is did you start to wonder, my God, I've paid all this money for law school for this profession I thought I wanted and I can't do it?

A: Yes.

Q: Tell me about that.

A: It was a tough three years in law school with little kids. I had a very supportive husband, but it was hard and yet as much as I enjoyed it and as much as I wanted to do it I wasn't sure how at the end of that I was going to end up using it. I enjoyed clerking. I had enjoyed the law firm to a point, but it was just an unmanageable situation in terms of what I wanted to do with my family. What I wanted my family life to be like.

Q: Did you talk to people at the law firm about this?

A: No, actually I didn't. I really didn't see that there was an option. I was in actually it was kind of a satellite office of a big firm and it was a more manageable size. It was about 50 attorneys. People were really great but there was kind of a vacuum also in terms of mid level associates. So there was a little bit of a gap in terms of mentoring and support as well and I just didn't see that it was even a possibility that I would have an option to do something differently there.

Q; Did you feel if you had spoken up you would have been slapped down?

A: I wasn't sure. I really wasn't sure.

Q: What do you think?

A: Well in retrospect what ended up happening was I decided fairly early on in the process of the firm that it wasn't going to work for me. I talked to my judge that I had clerked for before and although that schedule was full-time, it was more predictable. It was more controllable and I talked to him about coming back and I made the decision to go back and clerk again. And when I informed the law firm that I had made that decision they actually to their credit came back and said well will you stay on until you go back to clerk on a part-time basis and so I did. And, so I stayed there for about another year and a half until I went back to work for the judge.

Q: When you started out with the law firm, the big law firm, tell me some of the things you missed that happened with your children or they were involved in. What specifically did you not see or not participate in?

A: The turning point for me came during a birthday party for my son and it was probably his 7 th or 8 th birthday. We had arranged to take a bunch of kids to a hockey game, and so we had about 8 to 10 eight year olds there at the game and I had something I had to get out and I sat there through the entire game almost in an anxiety. I knew that as soon as this was done it was kind of like how quickly can I get these kids out, get them put away, get them home and then turn to what I knew I had to do. It was kind of at that point that I thought this just really isn't working for me. My time was very unpredictable. I planned to be home at 6:00. I'd get tied up with something and I would end up not making it home until 8:00 or 9:00 sometime after they were in bed. So part of the problem was really just the predictability of the schedule. And it wasn't that the firm was unwilling I don't think. The problem was it was just kind of the nature of the work at that time and it made it very difficult to feel like I had control over my life and that I could really be there with my kids for my kids when I wanted to be.

Q: Do you think women that want some time with their families shouldn't go into the law?

A: Absolutely not. I absolutely love the law. I really enjoy the law. I love the intellectual challenge. I love my colleagues. I really enjoy it, but I think that law firms have to take a look at how they can structure work for women and for parents in general, people who want to find that balance in life and work. Look at ways that they can structure things so that that's possible so that you can have both.

Q: Why should they?

A: I think that there is a huge pool of women that have a lot to offer that have great skills, great abilities who are being underutilized because there hasn't been that effort to kind of find that balance. I think that the law firms miss out. I think that you're more productive when you have found some sense of balance and I think that you're more productive when you feel as though your supported by your employer by the people that you work with.

Q: And you found such a balance in a new law firm?

A: I actually did. I actually did. My course has been a little bit atypical. I clerked, I went to a big firm but then I have done, I've kind of been taking some detours along the way to get to where I am now. After I clerked for a couple of years I left, I gave notice and I left and I wasn't sure what I was going to do and I guess I assumed that I would probably not do anything for a while and try to figure out what it was. How I could find what I wanted with the situation I wanted. So I didn't work for a few months while I tried to figure out what that was. I got a call from a friend from law school who asked if I was interested in doing some contract work for the firm that she had come to right out of law school which was (unintelligible) and I did. So I came on a contract basis. I worked strictly with this firm. I worked a variety of hours depending on what the work load was like. I knew that if I was working full-time 40 hours for one week that I could not take a project on for the next couple of weeks and then have that time. So I had a certain amount of control that I hadn't found before. That worked really well when my kids were kind of in those kind of tough late elementary early middle school, high school years. I kind of felt they almost needed me more than they had when they were little and I did that for three years. Then having had that experience with this firm and having seen the value that they put on people and family and life and my kids getting a little older which also helped I decided that this really was the kind of firm that wasn't litigation placed ahead of life it was really the practice it was really the situation. It felt like I had found what I was looking for here. The family friendly firm. People leave to coach, people leave for programs at their kids' schools in the middle of the day and nobody raises their eyebrows. It's basically, you feel supported.

Q: Are you full-time now?

A: I'm full-time now. I've been full-time for a couple of years.

Q: So are you satisfied with especially the last few years, how you have been able to reach you know in your contracting years?

A: I'm really really happy now. I feel like I've got a lot to offer. I feel like I'm still learning. I feel as though the people I work with have made a conscious decision that they want to find some balance between life and work.

Q: Did it cost you anything in terms of your career staying more with your children?

A: It's been hard trying to figure out even here exactly where I fall. It's not as though I came out of law school, went to work full-time and now, I'm not a typical 11 th year attorney at this point. I'm more like a 7 th year because I've taken periods of time off. I've done some different things that don't, haven't developed me as a lawyer in a way that had I worked full-time in a litigation track would have been. So I am in a little different position, but I'm happy.

Q: Are you a partner?

A: Not yet. But this firm, I am getting credit for, we've actually talked about how to credit the various experiences that I have had and the various pieces that I have had. And I am on a (unintelligible) track.

Q: But you could have been reaping that kind of money for a lot longer.

A: It wasn't worth it. It wasn't what I wanted.

Q: What did you want?

A: I wanted a chance to do what I was able to do to feel that kind of intellectual challenge to feel that sense of contributing to a product. That sense of collegiality and I wanted to do it in a way that I didn't have to give up what I wanted personally which was to have a relationship with my kids. To have a relationship with my husband. To have some free time.

Q: Your husband, did he work all this time?

A: He did.

Q: And when you were initially working with that first law firm, big firm, who looked after the children?

A; We had someone who lived with us who helped with the kids. But he is also self-employed so he had a certain amount of time.

Q: What does your husband do?

A: He is a psychologist.

Q: Is it possible to do this balancing act, children and family if there is not much money in the home? I guess what I'm saying is this is a dilemma that you have to have money to be able to worry about this. If you had to work I guess you would just take what you were offered.

A: I think everybody at this firm has made a decision that the lifestyle is more important than the money. Realistically the salaries that this firm pays are not the same as the salaries of the big firms. But we have all made a decision that lifestyle, family time, all of those things are more important. So yes it is less money. I could be making a lot more money somewhere else I'm sure, but again to me to be making the money and to be unhappy and to feel like I'm not doing what I want to do and I'm not finding the balance I want to find, it's not worth it.

Q: What would you say to young women in law school right now who pondering their future dilemma?

A: I think it's difficult. I think it's very difficult for women entering law and I think that part of that is the nature of the practice. Part of it is the nature of the way many law firms are structured. I think what I would suggest is that look beyond, there's a lot of, it's easy to get seduced by the money. It's easy to get seduced by the big name and I think that my advice would be to take a step back and look at what it is that you want and whether or not what you are looking for you are going to find. Look carefully at that before making a decision.

Q: Isn't the culture of a lot of law firms very macho? You know like you're a wimp if you even presume to take the family leave that is offered you know. Such things maybe it's not discouraged exactly, but you are looked upon with contempt for even considering it.

A: I think that's probably true because of the path I've taken I haven't felt it so much as I think maybe many women have felt it. But I think that yes, I think that tends to be the culture of many firms. But I don't think it's the only.

Q: Just so I have that in a complete sentence, say the culture, you think that's so I have a complete thought coming from you, that you think that's the culture, what is this culture in many firms?

A: I think the culture in many firms is that if you're not burning the midnight oil, if you're not working with that goal of partner or shareholder in mind that you're slightly less than a full member of the team.

Q: You're not macho. So you think you have done it right?

A: I don't know that I've done it right. I think that it was the right thing for me. I certainly don't pretend to know what the right thing is for someone else. For me it was the right thing. Do I regret not having all of the experience that I might have had. Sometimes, but for the most part I feel like this has worked for me. I feel like I know my kids. I feel like I have a relationship with them. I still enjoy practice. I'm challenged by practice. I'm excited by what I'm doing. I adore the people I work with. It's worked for me. It may not work for someone else, but it's worked for me.

Q: Great. Thank you very much. And I think in some less enlightened places which are probably the norm at least I hear that from relatives at firms. You know it's like: Are you kidding? Take the leave? Why don't I just slit my wrists and let the blood run all over the partners?

A: It's very true and it's very hard to find that and it is very seductive.

Q: I guess. Yes, sure, power.

A: Power, money.

Q: When you say there is less money here is it because you are putting in fewer hours?

A: I don't know, I'm not sure how to answer. I'm not sure I understand the question.

Q: Well are you paid at a cheaper rate than other law firms here or is it because the lawyers here because they do, are allowed more family time, take it and therefore put in less hours?

A: Are you asking if there is a difference between those who B

Q: You said there is less money here? And is it because your not working the cut your throat hours or is he a cheap guy that only pays you like $50 an hour?

A: Oh, no, no. Our salary schedule is lower than many of the big firms. We just you know our base salaries are lower.

Q: Ok. Because you are a smaller firm.

A: Because we are a smaller firm. At the end of the day my understanding is that we share in whatever the profits are. It's a very open process. So we all know what money is coming in. If we worked more hours we would probably bring more money in, but that's not the culture of this firm. The culture of the firm is you know they expect a certain number of hours. They expect a good work product and then we kind of share in whatever, you know wherever we are.